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Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 28 juil.16, 00:25
par papy
keinlezard a écrit : Et ceci explique cela ... 136 000 $ d'amende le 28/07/2016 qui ne seront jamais payé parce que la WT refuse de reconnaitre ses responsabilité
La WT ne payera pas , les pertes seront plus importantes que l'amende .
C'est comme le déballastage des navires en mer qui est réglementé et doit se dérouler dans les installations portuaires. Elles sont cependant souvent assimilées au déversement de polluant en mer. Afin de ne pas en payer le coût, certains navires vident, en effet, le contenu de leurs citernes et de leurs cuves directement dans les mers et les océans.

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 28 juil.16, 00:41
par jerzam
Mikael malik,

Je l'ai trouvé la citation sur internet. Mais ca n'est pas suffisant, il faut voir le document. Car la citation aurait été tronquée. Donc il faut revenir à la source pour voir si c'est vrai ou pas.

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 28 juil.16, 00:47
par kevver
Exact...

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 28 juil.16, 00:59
par Mikaël Malik
jerzam a écrit :Mikael malik,

Je l'ai trouvé la situation sur internet. Mais ca n'est pas suffisant, il faut voir le document. Car la situation aurait été tronquée. Donc il faut revenir à la source pour voir si c'est vrai ou pas.
Quelle importance, la société traîne tellement de casserole derrière elle, il a choisi ce thème pour se justifier et faire croire à ceux qui veulent l'entendre que ce qui est dit sur l'histoire passée de la société watch tower ne sont que des mensonges d'apostats, mais, il ne reprend pourtant pas 1874, 1878, 1925, 1941,1975 et la génération perdue de 1914 qui sont aussi des inventions et des mensonges d'apostats :lol:

Rien que sur ce lien, tu as à peu près toutes les certitudes de Charles Russel et ses (écritures saintes venant de Dieu)

http://www.temoinsdejesus.fr/FAUX_PROPHETES/EDE.php

142 ans de prophéties des Témoins de Jéhovah
https://youtu.be/v5o0fqPA26Q

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 28 juil.16, 01:23
par jerzam
Oui je sais qu'il y a plusieurs casseroles que traîne la watchtower. Il a manipulé les temoins de jehovah. Surtout s'il a dit vrai qu'il faisait parti de ceux qui recevaient les courriers. Il doit savoir que la watchtower cache des choses et qu'il ne peut pas répondre à cela. Par contre il a menti. Les temoins de jehovah, pour la plupart, ne connaissent pas la bible. Combien de fois j'ai eu honte en prédication. Il veut juste les conforter dans leur certitude. Et il a encore menti car les opposants à la watchtower utilise la bible. Et combien de foi Agecanonix, Kerridween ou Estrabolio n'ont pas su me répondre quand j'utilisais des versets qui condamnent les temoins de jehovah. Et c'est grâce à un point de vue biblique que j'ai commencé à douter et à trouver le point de vue des ex tj. C'était d'ailleurs ici je crois. Sur une discussion sur l'esclave fidèle et avisé.

Comment il ment.

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 28 juil.16, 02:37
par keinlezard
Hello,
Le contenu de la TG de 1910 page 298 du 15 septembre est le suivant :
IS THE READING OF "SCRIPTURE STUDIES" BIBLE STUDY?

The plan of reading twelve pages of the STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURE each day, tried by so many, results in more Bible
study than any other way that we know of. We believe that it is not so much the time that is given to Bible study, but
the amount of study done and the amount of information guide(1, that counts. We all know people who have spent
days and weeks and years in study of the Bible : and have learned little Mr notbi1;g. We think the idea that Bible study
is merely the time spent in handling a Bible and reading over some verses is a mistaken idea.

It is a great deal like bunting or fishing. Some people go hunting every year, and though they do a lot of hunting, it
is no sure indwation nf how much they get. Some do a lot of fishing, but do not get many fish. Bi’ble study is very much
the same. It is not the amount of time we spend in poring over a passage, hut the amount of information we secure from
the Bible.

The six volumes of SCRIPTURES STUDIES are not intended to supplant the Bible. There are various methods to be pursued
in the study of the Bible and these aids to Bible study are in such form that they, of themselves, contain the important
elements of the Bible as well as the comments or elucidations of those Bible statements, on exactly the same principle that
our Lord and the Apostles quoted from the Old Testament, and then gave elucidations of those Old Testament passages.
Many of the elucidations were such that if we had not had them, had not had specific interpretations, we might never have
been able to discern the proper application of them.

THE HARVEST THE DUE TIME FOR A CLEAR UNFOLDING OF THE TRUTH

The applications of the SCRIPTURSET UDIESa re, of course, based upon those of the Lord and the Apostles. We do not
feel that it would be in our province to give any interpretation except that which would be either already given by our Lord
and the Apostles or such as wouhl so fit and dovetail with their interpretations as to leave, in our judgment, no doub~ as
to the proper application of the Scriptures referred to and explained.

Those parts of the Bible which once we thought we understood well, we find that we did not understand at all. Some
of the very things relative to the ransom, relative to salvation. we did not understand. Looking back over our experiences, we
fully believed that there was a God and that he would reward those who diligently sought him, and that he had sent Jesus
his Son, but how and why. we did not eomprehend. We had wrong ideas as to what was the penalty for sin; wrong ideas
a~ to why a Savior should come; entirely wrong ideas as to what the Savior (lid; wrong ideas as to what he was to do in
the future, and as to what would be our relationship to the Father and the Savior. We knew, in some sense of the word,
that we were called to be a son, but how to become a son and what was meant by the begetting of the holy Spirit, and
kindred terms, we did net comprehend; and in our experience we have found none who ever did comprehend these things.
So we believe that the thought for us to take in this connection is that it is because we are living in this particular
time, in the ending of this age, that we are favored with such a clear unfolding of spiritual things. It is also our thought
that present blessings of a temporal kind, such as the electric light, are due for similar reasons. We believe that any other
explanation would confer too great honor upon the individual connected with the production. The very ablest minds in tile
world have examined these subjects, but now, by God’s grace, we have come to the place where the vail is taken away and
where we can see the real meaning of God’s Word--not merely one person can see it, but hundreds, thousands, see it.

We think that we get the right conception to thus view it rather than to think that we had some great power which
enabled us to put together a great system of theology, more wonderful than all other systems of thee.log T put together--a
thousand times more wonderful. Therefore, the simplest way to explain the matter is to acknowledge that the Lord’s due
time has come and that he has guided to the right understanding.

If. then, the Lord has provided us with something in our day that other days than those of the Apostlea knew nothing
about, no matter how good nor how wise they were---for us to ignore the line of teaching which has been thus developed
would be, in our judgment, to ignore the Lord’s providences. It is for each one to think for himself, however, and to guide
his conduct in every way accordingly.

if the six volumes of SCRIPTURES TUDIESa re practically the Bible topically arranged, with Bible proof-texts given, we
might not improperly name the volumes--the Bible in an arranged form. That is to say, they are not merely comments
on the Bible, but they are practically the Bible itself, since there is no desire to build any doctrine or thought on any
individual preference or on any individual wisdom, but to present the entire matter on the lines of the Word of God. We
therefore think it safe to follow this kind of reading, this kind of instruction, this kind of Bible study.

Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also,
that if anyone lays the SCalPTUaES TUDIESa side, even after he has used them, after lie has become familiar with them, after
he has read them for ten years--if tie then lays them aside and ignores thenl and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood
his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had
merely read the ScRIeTt:n~,] STUDIESw ith their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the
hght at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.

Our thought, therefore, is that these SC~IPTURE STUDmS are a great assistance, a very valuable help, in the understanding
of God’s Word. If these books are to be of any value to us it must be because ~e see in them loyalty to the Word of
God, and as far as our judgment goes, see them to be in full harmony with the Word and not antagonistic to it. Theretore,
in reading them the first time, and perhaps the second time, and before we would accept anything as being our own personal
faith and conviction, we should say, "I will not take it because these studies say so; I wish to see what the Bible says." And
so we would study the Scriptures in the light of these SCRIPTURE STUI)IES; we would prove every point, or disprove it, as
the case might be. We would be satisfied with nothing less than a thorough investigation of the Bible from this standpoint.

If, after doing that, we should find the books to be in accord with the Bible. then we would think we were logical in saying,
"I will m)t need to go through that process now every time that I rezM the SCRII"ruI~E STUDIES, for I have looked up those
texts of Scripture and knew certainly that the New Testament proves all those points." If, at the same time, in any future
reading, we should come to a place where something did not -eem clear to us and we thought of some Scripture which
seemed not as harmonious with it as we had previously thought, x~e ~ould think it our duty to refer at once to the
Scriptures. because the Scriptures are the standard, and in that reference to the Scripture it would be with a view to
discerning whether or not we had been mistaken in our prevbms examinations.

"THEY SHALL BE ALL TAUGHT OF GOD"
\Ve would eonchtde, practically, that we could not understand anythi.ng’ about the Bible except as it was revealed. We
would, therefore, not waste a great deal of time doing what we know sonic people do, reading chapter after chapter, to no
profit. We wonhl not think of doing it. We wouhl not think we were studying the Scriptures at all. We would think we
were following the course that had been anything but profitable to ourselves and many others in the past--merely reading
)ver the Scriptures. We would say that the same Heavenly Father who had guided us to this truth, to this understanding
of the Scriptures as his children, if he had some further information ior us he would bring it to our attention in some
manner; and therefore we would not see the necessity of reading the New Testament every day or every year; we would not
consider that necessary. We would consider that the Scripture which says, "They shall be all taught of God," would imply
that in his own appointed way God would bring to our attention whatever feature of divine truth would be "meat in due
season for the household of faith."

Further, we would say that now, having satisfied ourselves respecting what the Divine Plan is, we would understand that
we had reached the place that the Apostle speaks of as being a qualified ambassador of God, a qualified minister of the New
Covenant, and that, as a servant or minister of the New Covenant, we now had a responsibility in making known these
things that we had learned; that we were not put here primarily to read the Bible, but primarily to serve the Lord and
his Truth. It was quite proper, however, that before we came to a knowledge of the Truth, and when we were in measurable
discontent of mind as to what was the Truth, that we should refrain from telling anybody else.

We remember very well in our own personal experience that after we had tried some street preaching, etc., we came
to the conclusion that there was something wrong; that we did not understand what we were trying to tell to others;
that we did not understand with sufficient clearness to properly present it and make sure that we were representing the Lord
and his message aright, and we said to ourself, "I will stop any endeavor to teach others until I know what I believe."

We think that should be the attitude of every one of us. Why should we attempt to preach or teach anything that we
do not understand? So, after God favors us in this time with an understanding of Present Truth, he has given us a knowledge
of more truth than we could have gained in a thousand years if we had read and studied unaided; and now we can
attempt to present it to others. Why has he given us a knowledge of this Truth ? He wishes us to be "thoroughly furnished
unto every good word and work." Therefore, we should study that we may be able to speak the word of the Lord freely and
know that we are not misrepresenting the divine purpose and plan and character; and we ought therefore to give the more
earnest heed to the opportunities for service and consider that the information which has been given us has been given for the
very purpose that we may impart it to others--to those brethren and sisters of the Lord’s family, some of whom are in
Babylon yet, honest at heart, perhaps, and very desirous of knowing the truth, though perhaps very much blinded as we
once were.

"SCRIPTURE STUDIES" NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE BIBLE
This is not, therefore, putting the SCaIe’rURE STUDIESa ~ a substitute for the Bible, because so far as substituting for the
Bible, the STUOrES, on the contrary, continually refer to the Bible; and if one has any doubt as to a reference or if one’s
recollection should lapse in any degree, one should refresh his memory, and, in fact, should see that his every thought is in
harmony with the Bible--not merely in accord with tile SCRIP’rl_rm.: STUDIESb, ut in accord with the Bible.

We might remark that quite a number of the friends in the Truth are making it a rule to read twelve pages of the SCRIPTUrn,:
STUDIZS a day,
and that we do not know one who has been following this course and making use of the various means
of grace the Lord has provided (Dawn and testimony meetings and Sunday meetings and Pilgrim meetings and the Berean
lessons, Manna text, etc.), who has gone out of the truth. We know a great many who, on the contrary, have been of the
opinion that they knew these things long ago, while in fact they do not know half of what they did know--they have forgotten
more than half of what they read and they are those who are now stumbling--going into outer darkness.

We are not wishing in this to say anything against one’s poring over chapters that he does not understand and others
do not understand, hoping that he might light on some truth. We have no obiection to this. He has a perfect right to do so
if be wishes. IIe has a right to spend weeks and years in this way if tie chooses, but the chances even then are that when
be does light on something he will have it all wrong.

Furthermore, we would suggest that merely reading twelve pages of the SCRIPTURSET UI~IES would not be studying in the
proper sense of the word
--neither studying the Bible nor studying the ScalrTUiCz STUDIES. A pr(Ter study would be to think
of the meaning of every word and every sentence. The thought is, it is not to see bow much one can read, but to make sure
that one goes no further than he comprehends or understands, whether that means one page or twenty pages. We should not
consider it a Scripture study in any sense of the word unless our thought has grasped the matter from the standpoint of
seeking to know what the Scriptures teach and seeking to call to mind these Scripture.~ that are being explained and to call
to mind other texts, perhaps, that are not cited, or of which only a small portion is cited.

If one will do all this it will not be merely a reading but a study; and from this standpoint, whoever reads two pages of
SCRIPTURES TUDIESe ach day with the suggested passages connected with those two pages, would do more Scripture studying
in that time than he could do by any other method. Whenever he reads these pages and calls the corresponding or connecting
Scriptures to mind he is drawing from the whole Bible, irom Genesis to Revelation, with practically every page he
reads. Now is it possible to find any other Bible study that would accomplish so much for us in the same time as this
would do? If there is we ought to take it. If there is not, then we have our opinion.

Je n'ai pas corrigé les fautes de L'OCR ... et pas traduit non plus ...

Ce qui est remarquable dans le texte et c'est une constante dans la littérature Jéhoviste c'est le double langage ...

le brave Russell dit "Les Etudes Des Ecritures Ne sont pas un Substitut de la Bible" Mais tout du long de son article il met en avant son livre "l'étude des Ecritures " ... allant jusqu'à suggérer que lire son livre c'est en "quelque sorte étudier la Bible" ...
Russell était un simplet qui pouvait passer pour sincère dans sa démarche mais cette technique de dire "nous n'avons pas dit " mais "si vous faisiez ainsi ou comme cela c'est comme si "

Nous avons par exemple les "la WT ne dit pas de ne pas faire d'enfant" elle dit "armageddon est sur nous est il opportun de faire des enfants" .. et les témoignages des pionniers "nous n'avons pas fait d'enfant nous en auront dans le paradis" ... "nous avons pu nous donner pleinement à jéhovah"
ou encore les "Nous n'avons jamais parler de 1975" ... mais le moindre article de 1968 ou de 1969 transpire la fausse prophétie ... avec des "des témoignage nous parviennent de frère qui vendent leur maison : c'est ce qu'il y a de mieux à faire en cette période de temps " sous entendu "pré-armageddon" ...

Je vais voir si je trouve une version française dans mes archives

Cordialement

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 28 juil.16, 05:49
par jerzam
Merci keinlezard,

Du coup, la citation à t'elle été tronquée?

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 29 juil.16, 06:11
par Liberté 1
jerzam a écrit :Merci keinlezard,

Du coup, la citation à t'elle été tronquée?
Oui :hi:
keinlezard a écrit : "SCRIPTURE STUDIES" NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE BIBLE

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 30 juil.16, 00:47
par Mikaël Malik
https://tv.jw.org/#fr/video/VODPrograms ... 07_2_VIDEO

La personne sur le vidéo ne montre rien, il dit que..., mais est-ce vrai ? Il ne montre pas la lettre de cette dame, ni la copie tronquée de Russel, ni l'original de Russel

Et même si cela était vrai, cet apostat est un imbécile, car ce n'est rien à côté de la somme des fausses prédictions et des fausses promesses dignes de foi et bibliques selon la société quelle à fourni depuis 142 ans, la société veut comme à son habitude retourner et faire porter ses mensonges sur ceux qui à juste titre les dénoncent avec perte et fracas pour cette société qui règne en maître par le mensonge et l'hypocrisie qui ne trompe plus personne


Luc 11,39 Mais le Seigneur lui dit: «Vous, pharisiens, vous nettoyez l'extérieur de la coupe et du plat, mais à l'intérieur vous êtes pleins d'avidité et de méchanceté.40 Hommes dépourvus de bon sens! Celui qui a fait l'extérieur n'a-t-il pas fait aussi l'intérieur?

12 Pendant ce temps, les gens s'étaient rassemblés par milliers, au point de s'écraser les uns les autres. Jésus se mit à dire à ses disciples: «Avant tout, méfiez-vous du levain des pharisiens, qui est l'hypocrisie. 2 Il n'y a rien de caché qui ne doive être découvert, ni de secret qui ne doive être connu. 3 C'est pourquoi tout ce que vous aurez dit dans l'obscurité sera entendu en plein jour et ce que vous aurez dit à l'oreille dans les chambres sera proclamé sur les toits.

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 30 juil.16, 01:00
par Liberté 1
Mikaël Malik a écrit :https://tv.jw.org/#fr/video/VODPrograms ... 07_2_VIDEO

La personne sur le vidéo ne montre rien, il dit que..., mais est-ce vrai ? Il ne montre pas la lettre de cette dame, ni la copie tronquée de Russel, ni l'original de Russel
Je suis d'accord avec toi :mains: mais, si ce Monsieur de la vidéo en aurait apporté la preuve, alors, la citation aurait été tronquée :hi:

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 30 juil.16, 01:18
par Mikaël Malik
Je suis pratiquement certain que cette histoire et bidon à côté des tonnes de fausses promesses et des fausses prédictions qui elles sont bien réelles, s'il a pris cet exemple ridicule et minable pour démontrer les mensonges apostats, c'est bien qu'il n'ait rien d'autre pour démentir les supposés mensonges des apostats sur la société. La société n'a pas su prophétiser la venue de l'Internet, elle ne pourra plus jamais rien faire ni rien cacher sans que cela se sache, même avec sa doctrine inventée du mensonge (théocratique), rien ne sera plus caché et tout se saura


Sur le vidéo, il reconnaît quand même en gros que les livres de Russel sont en accord avec la Bible :lol:

Temoins de Jéhovah : Nos vraie origines
https://youtu.be/5WqHea-pvEQ?list=PLC427ADBA2FE7D4D6

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 31 juil.16, 20:47
par keinlezard
Hello,
Comme d'hab c'est pernicieux ... la lettre n'a pas besoin de tronquer une citation ... puisque le texte ne dit pas cela :)

Comme en fait nous sommes face à une double désinformation.
Premiere desinformation : la citation est tronquée
La seconde : le texte tronqué aurait affirmé que .

Le texte original explique "ne remplace pas la Bible" mais sur l'ensemble du Texte Russell fait comprendre que si on ne lit que ses livres alors c'est tout aussi bien que la bible.

Ce qui m'amène cette reflexion que la WT à un double langage depuis sa fondation :(


D'ailleurs dans le double langage j'avais aborder il y a peu les maisons de retraite "Jah jireh" qui s'en forcément être tenue par la Watchtower offraient des prestation de luxe ... avec des premiers prix aux alentours de 4000 à 5000 $ par mois !

... et bien nous avons le retour des "maison de retraite" Jéhoviste !

http://www.legacyplace.org/

studio simple : 3 600 $ /mois !

Je serais curieux de connaître le nombre de pionniers même à mi temps qui à une telle retraite ?

Médico ?
Agecanonix ?
Kerridween ?

Un chiffre une réponse ? ???

Pour ma part je ne vois que Samuel Herd qui en vendant sa rolex peu y passer 6 mois ...
Image

:)
Cordialement

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 01 août16, 00:43
par Gérard C. Endrifel
=> http://www.bienpublic.com/actualite/201 ... ge-unanime
« Nous croyons en la paix. Nous sommes paisibles », explique l’intéressé. Avant d’ajouter que les Témoins « respectent l’autorité, l’ordre public » Et qu’ils ont choisi de laisser faire l’État.
Ce qui ne les empêche pas de s’investir, comme à Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray, où une des personnes ayant porté secours à une religieuse, présente sur les lieux du drame, était un Témoin.
=> http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/les-t ... 00n3658912

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 01 août16, 07:22
par papy
Kerridween a écrit :
les Témoins « respectent l’autorité, l’ordre public » Et qu’ils ont choisi de laisser faire l’État.
Si les TdJ respectent l'autorité pourquoi ne rendent-ils pas à César ce qui est à César plutôt que de payer une astreinte de 3000$ par jour ?

Re: La Watchtower est elle en perte de vitesse ?

Posté : 13 août16, 00:48
par jerzam
Pour ceux qui veulent venir en aide aux temoins de jehovah ou ex temoins de jehovah. Proposez votre aide en vous faisant connaître par l'association checopa.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/899270196868676/