PANORAMAS DES ARGUMENTS C QUOI ?
c'est un concept que j ai imagine où on réunit dans un dialogue entre deux parties tous les arguments présent sur la question .qcela permet de avoir une vie d ensemble synthétique pour le chercheur non avisé et cela permet de ne pas avoir de raccourcis ou manipulztion en abordant seulement un angle de vision. Le document est fait pour bouger et être donné a des experts pour qu il apportent de nouveaux élément jusqu a que le document soit plus ou moins complet.
Donc vous êtes dévot ou soufi ou musulman classique vous pouvez prendre des bouts du débat et commenter .
DEVOT DE KRISHNA
Intervention
sufi Muslim side
name: ALISHANE
Vaishnava side
Name :ANANTA VAISHNAVA
Name: Tadit kajikistan ISKON vaishnava
Devala ree quora expert
SOUFI Muslim ALISHANE
ANANTA VAISHNAVA
1st question .1st Tema: Allah and Krishna (marked with this symbol
What is the difference between Allah (Muslim's God) and Krishna (Krishna devot's God)?
SOUFI ALISHANE:
ISLAM give importance to the definition of every création.Human Beeing is a human Beeing because of his specific caracteristics . If for example somebody is
An animal is an animal because of his specific caracteristic . If we describe an animal that fly and we say:" it s a tiger". It s wrong.
A fruit is a fruit because of his specific caracteristic. If something has the taste and appearance of an apple and you say it s a banana it s wrong .
And GOD HAS PARTICULAR CARACTERISTICS
AND THE MOST IMPORTANT IS THAT HE'S
For a normal human Beeing if you call him by shouting
:"Eh Donkey or dog it's disrespected. And this person will be angry against you."
And for a king if he talks to you and you talk to him by calling him a slave. It s disrespected. For God it's the same but the difference is that this great respect is for the benefit of human beeing (not to be illusioned) but not for God that IS beyond everything.
FOR ISLAM
GOD ' S DÉFINITION IS SUBLIME , TRANSCENDENT , ABSOLUTE SO
-NO FORM,
HE' S BEYOND
-TIME
- SPACE ,
- UNIVERSE
- TIME : BEFORE/AFTER
-,THE BORN ,
-THE DEATH
(dont forget
BECAUSE ALL THIS IS RELATIVE AND HE S ABSOLUTE . HE HAS CREATED ALL THIS BUT HE S NOT THIS THINGS AS HE S ABSOLUTE
you take very Care not to disrespect a person by not calling him by an object s name
so how Can you Say that god is a human like Krishna , an éléphant with 8arms or a statue who dance ?
Krishna 's status have change with évolution of time , before he was drawned or sculptured as a black man and now grey blue so that you Can not recognize Krishna if you meet him in Real so how Can you Say that this grey blue form is god ? This draw is even not describing Krishna who looked liked like ancient African with very black skin .Bollywood fan would be disapointed.
ALL THIS FORM COME FROM HUMAN BEEING S FALSIFICATION BECAUSE HINDU HOLY SCRIPTURE WAS NOT PROTECTED
ALL SCRIPTURE WAS OPENED TO BE FALSIFIED UNTIL INVENTION OF PRINTING ARRIVED IN 19TH CENTURY
WE have 300 Ramayana
Many mahabarath ( tamoul mahabarath is not the same as hindi mahabarath)
Indian intellectual romila thapar said original mahabarath ans ramanaya described RAMA AND KRISHNA AS HEROE AND WITH TIME IT CHANGED TO BECOME GODS. it s human Beeing 's invention .
holy Book Baghdavatan we dont know the datation. Some say as neither shankacharia or ramajuna speak about it so it 's a very modern book and not sruti at all.
The puranas was modified centuries After centuries and opened for all sect to write what they want about other sect and to invent all prophety . For example prophety to discredit shankacharya saying a man will come with vedic appearence but non vedic reality is only in bengali puranas so it s Krishna dévot version and not in all puranas like other from the North or south.
Each région and sects have his purana , his ramaya ,his mahabarath and can modified it like they want. IT S A BIG BAZAAR
ANANTA VAISHNAVA
Alright, first of all, in Islam, god has a form, the “highest position in Jannah” is seeing the “face” of Allah. Next, Rāma and Kṛṣṇa are both confirmed as incarnations of Lord Nārāyaṇa. You say that Kṛṣṇa was originally black like an African but people turned him blue. First of all, not all Africans are black. Next, Kṛṣṇa is said to be so black that when he was born in the night, Vasudeva, his father, couldn’t see where he was until he shined his teeth! Also, you say that Rāma and Kṛṣṇa were just heroes and humans elevated their status. In Mahābhārata, it is stated by Īśvara (you might know him as Śiva),
śrī rāma rāma rāmeti rame rāme manorame | sahasranāma tattulyaṁ rāma nāma varānane ||
O Varānanī, by chanting the glorious name of Rāma, one gets the merit of reciting the entire thousand names of Viṣṇu!
As for Kṛṣṇa though, texts such as the Bhagavad Gītā, a part of Mahābhārata clearly show that he is the supreme personality of godhead. For example, he is the only one called Bhagavān. There are numerous mentions of “śrī bhagavān uvāca (the Original Personality of Godhead spoke)” throughout the Gītā as well as the Mahābhārata itself.
Also, you fail to understand the concept of līla, which I get is completely alien to all Islamic Theology. Līla is when the lord takes on conditioned, human, and imperfect qualities for the benefit of mankind so that all may look up to him. Rāma needed the help of monkeys to build a bridge to Laṅkā and Kṛṣṇa would always go around and steal butter during his childhood. Humans cannot relate to him if he displays all his perfect qualities and descends down to the Earth.
Moreover, if you are having trouble on deciding which of the 300 Mahābhāratas are true, read Vyāsa Mahābhārata, called “Jaya”. The same case with Rāmāyaṇa; read Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa and understand the true aspect of the stories. I agree that there all a lot of Rāmāyaṇas, some in Tamizh and some in Avādhī and some in others and others. These are just retellings of the original in case the people of the area cannot understand the profound Sanskrit of the original, same applies to Mahābhārata.
Sufi Muslim ALISHANE
Thanks for answer . Good exchange inshalah
No coran Say Allah is different from his creature.
Thousand of islamic scholar consensus said when coran talk about Allah s hand or face it s symbolism it s not incarnation . For example Allah siting on his trone in the sky
Scholar said it means his ALL POWER LIKE IRON POWER . NOTHING CAN ESCAPE HIS CONTROL
(dont forget
Next, Rāma and Kṛṣṇa are both confirmed as incarnations of Lord Nārāyaṇa. You say that Kṛṣṇa was originally black like an African but people turned him blue. First of all, not all Africans are black. Next, Kṛṣṇa is said to be so black that when he was born in the night, Vasudeva, his father, couldn’t see where he was until he shined his teeth!
Yes so Nowadays Krishna 's draw are very far of reality do you agree?
Also, you say that Rāma and Kṛṣṇa were just heroes and humans elevated their status. In Mahābhārata, it is stated by Īśvara (you might know him as Śiva),
śrī rāma rāma rāmeti rame rāme manorame | sahasranāma tattulyaṁ rāma nāma varānane ||
O Varānanī, by chanting the glorious name of Rāma, one gets the merit of reciting the entire thousand names of Viṣṇu!
As for Kṛṣṇa though, texts such as the Bhagavad Gītā, a part of Mahābhārata clearly show that he is the supreme personality of godhead. For example, he is the only one called Bhagavān. There are numerous mentions of “śrī bhagavān uvāca (the Original Personality of Godhead spoke)” throughout the Gītā as well as the Mahābhārata itself.
You should read about islamic sufism . Sufism Say that
Great soul Can reaching the extinction in god
Like ice melting in the sea.
Sufism beleave that God is manifest himself in every human but the problem is that human ego appropriate to himself god ' s act and quality
So human beeings are spiritualy veiled and blind of their inside divine secret because of their ego “IAM”.
So spiritual path is to transcend this veil
-for atheist
from no belief to faith
-for mass people
From a normal life to a spiritual practising life
-for elite
From ritual to extinction in god
. And great prophets or saints have reached this perfect manifestation so that all their words ,acting or being is from God. They are avatara ( God makes his Beeing falling on their soul and the ICE of their ego melt in god s sea )
And a great prophet or avatar will give this secret to FEW TOP DISCIPLE like Jesus made transfiguration (Jesus spreading a shining light from his face )with only 3 apostles .
It s a secret. Krishna in Baghdava gita talked to how many people ?
Krishna said (1 answer is wrong)
1. Butcher ,taxi , seller ,fishman you thousand people I talk to you I am perfect manifestation of God.
2. O Arjuna I talk only to you because you are my faithful friend ?
Many great Sufi master said this to their top disciple but it s not for mass people because they Can understand things wrongly.
but it doesn't mean they are god in essence. They are perfect manifestation of God 100per cent.
Also, you fail to understand the concept of līla, which I get is completely alien to all Islamic Theology. Līla is when the lord takes on conditioned, human, and imperfect qualities for the benefit of mankind so that all may look up to him. Rāma needed the help of monkeys to build a bridge to Laṅkā and Kṛṣṇa would always go around and steal butter during his childhood. Humans cannot relate to him if he displays all his perfect qualities and descends down to the Earth.
In Islam Mohamed and great saint are perfect manifestation of God and hide this secret for top student only
Moreover, if you are having trouble on deciding which of the 300 Mahābhāratas are true, read Vyāsa Mahābhārata, called “Jaya”. The same case with Rāmāyaṇa; read Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa and understand the true aspect of the stories. I agree that there all a lot of Rāmāyaṇas, some in Tamizh and some in Avādhī and some in others and others. These are just retellings of the original in case the people of the area cannot understand the profound Sanskrit of the original, same applies to Mahābhārata.
The original sanata darma is pure monotheism with prophet like Rama or Krishna
That are human being (human has different Layer inside from body to soul to spirit to divine secret )
And talk to their top disciple only
,about the fact that they are perfect manifestation of god.
Because for mass people that have many limited people and even silly people you can not say some subtile mystical concept.
So monotheism say for mass people
Allah is one ,without form
Workship him
and make good acts for paradise and dont make sins to avoid hell
Then for spiritual elite the prophet or spiritual have secret but
In essence you can not have only one avatara that is god like Krishna
In essence it's mystical everything is god like a miror of this essence
and nothing is god as the god essence is absolute and has
No Beginning (Krishna was born so he s not god in Essence but he s god because his word ,being , act come from God . It s pure . No place for devil when you hear Krishna you hear god)
No End (Krishna died so he s not god in Essence but he s god because his word ,being , act come from God . It s pure . No place for devil)
No Form (Krishna had a body so he s not god in Essence but he s god because his word ,being , act come from God . It s pure . No place for devil)
No Time ( Krishna lived in earth so he depend in time so he s not god in Essence but he s god because his word ,being , act come from God . It s pure . No place for devil)
No Space no move. (Krishna lived in earth and moved so he s not god in Essence but he s god because his word ,being , act come from God . It s pure . No place for devil)
DIVINE ESSENCE It s an other world.
2th THEME DO SUFI MUSLIM SAY WE CAN BECOME GOD? DUALISM OR NON DUALIST.
Sufi Muslim ALISHANE
In sufism
God and human Beeing is like the puppeteer and puppets
The first is a ice puppet when the puppeteer make it move
He say i move by myself i dont beleave in the puppeteer
The second puppet is
Water puppet
When puppeteer make it moving it Say
I move for the pupperteer i workship him and make things for him
The last puppet is vapor puppet
It say
I dont exist all what i do it s puppeteer make
Sufi call it fana or extinction in god
Melting in god
In hinduism language this man that have reach this level can not rebirth
because he doesnt have an ego
HE doesnt have a soul saying "IAM"
Other people that have a
Beeing beleaving on the illusion of their act
Will stay in samsara
Some in paradise
Other in hell
So the great goal for a dévot is to reach
THE FANA IN GOD (MELTING)
GOING BEYOND THE BEEING
THE NORMAL SOUL
GOING in the suprême paradise called
FIRDAWS THE 7TH FLOOR OF PARADISE
IT S THE PARADIS OF THE FACE OF GOD
it s not like other paradise
People in it Can not rebirth and live IN GOD
THEY ARE PERFECT MANIFESTATION OF GOD
The master choice 3-4 top disciple to give them
Secret
Secret of equality
In reality no Bad no good
And the secret of the master
HE S GOD
BECAUSE HE S THE PERFECT MANIFESTATION OF GOD
and like Jésus transfiguration or
Mohamed transfiguration
The top disciple Say
OH MASTER I HAVE SEEN YOU ONCE
FOR ALL
WITH THIS TRANSFIGURATION
m'y sufi cheikh Saïd
I have seen m'y master only once
(He was with him physically 30years)
[04/09 à 16:22] Alishan Halim: Yes the most important is to Ask
A devot is a spiritual sportman or sportwoman
What is the difference between a top World sportman and a middle level sportman
In sport physically we know it différence between
Pelé maradona or cristiano
With a middle level local soccer player
IS obvious
And in spirituality
What is the difference between a top master and a normal dévot ?
In sufism the difference is
DIGING AND ENTER INSIDE
FROM THE SECOND RUSSIAN DOLL TO THE THIRD
ANd from the THIRD to the fourth
Until you are a PERFECT MANIFESTATION OF GOD
YOU DONT HAVE A BEEING
AN EGO
A "IAM"
THE PUPPET IS JUST THE HAND , THE TOOL OF THE PUPPERTEER
[04/09 à 18:07] Alishan Halim: Sufism has two reality
-charia (the Law) the normal reality to give to mass people
You have free will and you have to make effort to gain the paradise by prays
-the haqiqa secret reality
After a long spiritual path the sufi reach the secret
Everything is a God manifestation
People beleave in their BEEING EGO
Wheter it be making go ACT or sinn Bad acts
Are the same
They are SPIRITUALY VEILED .
in hindu language they will stay in the wheel of existence After paradise or hell.
People who reach their divine secret and dont have a BEEING
stop the rebirth
They go in paradise of the face of ALLAH
ETERNAL ESSENCE
So
Krishna dévot
Muslim
Christian
Are all veiled
Because there IS still IAM DOING THIS TO OBTAIN PARADISE
SUFI PATH make to putt off the veil
And vaishnava s path can put it off?
VAISHNAVA TADITE TAJIKISTAN ISKON
Hare Krsna, dear alishan Prabhu
I shall try to provide response to make finally proper dialog or conversation.
Let's start from the beginning... The nature of soul: is eternal, sat, eternally a person. That means that soul never disappeares.
The Sufie term "fana" does not mean that soul becomes nothing. Also idea to merge in God is also not complete. To merge in the Lord would mean to become God.
The opinion of Hujveri that the soul may attain "the quality of fire" but never stops its separate existance reflects what Srila Prabhupada explains, the same opinion is in Bhagavad-gita.
The relationship of the tiny spiritual spark (the individual soul) and Krsna (the Lord) is always there, is eternal.
The idea of disappearing or merging is possible due to lack of knowledge of the spiritual reality. Such ideas are present in Buddhism and spread among Mayavadi philosophers.
Sufi Muslim ALISHANE
Thanks
You say
The Sufie term "fana" does not mean that soul becomes nothing.
Not nothing
its the dummy that IS JUST a tool of the puppeteer
You say
Also idea to merge in God is also not complete. To merge in the Lord would mean to become God.
No becoming God
Pupeteer has infinity of dommy
All dummy has one mission to do. Dummy become god IS to do billion mission that God make in one second. Human being Can not
But the Key IS to know that WE are only dummy in puppeteer hand. It s fana.
Veiled person , normal dévot think they have a will so that they want a reward. So they are limited
You Say
The opinion of Hujveri that the soul may attain "the quality of fire" but never stops its separate existance reflects what Srila Prabhupada explains, the same opinion is in Bhagavad-gita.
M'y answer
Junayd baghdadi
Ahmed rifai
Abdel qadir jilani
Abul Hassan shazili
Ibn arabi
Hujwiri is good sufi but not a pôle
Hujwiri Say quality of fire
Its different from prahbupad
Hujwiri say i think when the pièce of wood burn in the fire
It disapear and have quality of the fire
So it's fana
Prahpubad would Say
Pièce of wood never disapear in the fire and Can not have quality of the fire.
Junayd thé sufi pôle (master of hujwiri by 5-6 master separing them in the spiritual chain )
Junaid wrote:
Now that I have known, O Lord
What lies within my heart
In secret, from the world apart
My tongue hath talked with my Adored
So in a manner we
United are, and One
Yet otherwise disunion
In our state eternally
Though my grace profound
Deep awe hath hid my face
In wonderous and ecstatic Grace
I feel Thee touch my inmost ground.
https://www.newageislam.com/the-imam-of ... y/d/110485
The state of Fana is represented by RUMI in Book Six of the Mathnawi where he writes:
When the Shaykh (Halláj) said ‘I am God’ and carried it through (to the end), he throttled (vanquished) all the blind (sceptics). When a man's ‘I’ is negated (and eliminated) from existence, then what remains? Consider, O denier.
You Say
The idea of disappearing or merging is possible due to lack of knowledge of the spiritual reality. Such ideas are present in Buddhism and spread among Mayavadi philosophers.
So it s not the same at all
Budhism IS like atheist transcendantal activity
The principal IS to make the soul empty
And you Can reach some miracle Prodigy
But this Prodigy are not vertical from the sky (God or angel)
But horizontal from the djinn
White spirit (devil) that give you miracle
So budhist Can have lévitation
Or.chinese martial art Can have Prodigy like
Dont feel harm if somebody hit them
Or other
But no link with God
It s devil(white devil) give prodigy.
To sum up
Sufi fana ,dummy pupet disapear in pupetteer
And disapear in one mission only .his mission . He s like the hand in a body of Mr X that know that everything is from Mr X. And make his mission of a hand ( but Can not make mission of the feet or of the eye)
Hindu fana is that dummy become the entire pupetteer and make all the mission
It s like the hand become Mr X and even make all the other members mission (impossible a hand can not walk or see)
Vaishna prapubah is that dummy doesnt disapear and make his mission one mission by himself his ego and so that he will reach a paradise (same as all dévot Muslim
Christian .jew)
It s like the hand make things for Mr X but make by itself . Free will deserve a reward :paradise.
Budhism fana is not linked to pupeteer (atheism) . The hand doesnt beleave in mrX.
So it s to reach some miracle or light from the jinn ( white devil )
TEMA 4 : IS IT POSSIBLE THAT NARADA MUNI IS A DEVIL AS HE S DECRIBED AS LOVER OF QUEREL ?
HE IS THE ORIGIN OF BAGHDAVATANE AND INFLUENCE VYASA THAT KRISNA IS SUPREME GOD.
This tema will be with symbole
Devala ree quora expert
Narada Muni is a divinely realized being, a manasa putra (“mind-born son”) of Brahma as old as this cycle of the universe, empowered with the Bhakti Shakti of Narayana Himself. He has the Siddhi of traveling freely through all the Lokas (worlds), and he wanders about singing the Glory of naranayane.
It is true that he is entertained by quarrels. But all he does is in service of the greater Dharma. Guided by Narayana’s secret council, Narada Muni sometimes talks to people he meets in various Lokas, and tells them things that will cause quarrels between them and others. Narayana uses Narada Muni as a tool in this way to break accumulated tensions into motion and resolve built-up karmas. Narada Muni then gets to stand back and watch the fun unfold as chaos erupts and Narayana, or someone on His behalf, fixes the situation in spectacular fashion. In this way Narada gets to participate in the Lilas of Narayana.
Alishane
But what is the difference with the devil? Even the devil if you go further his acting you Can find good conséquence if research very deeply with mystical understanding?
Ree
The difference is that Narada Muni is a holy being. Sure, you can say that all beings ultimately do the will of the Divine, but in that case you could say that any being in creation is “like the devil”.
How is considered narada muni in Hinduism? Is he like the DEVIL? Because he can travel on earth and time and known as "Kalaha-Priya" 'or the lover of quarrels"?http://www.bhagavatam-katha.com/narada- ... -quarrels/
Narada Muni is a divinely realized being, a manasa putra (“mind-born son”) of Brahma as old as this cycle of the universe, empowered with the Bhakti Shakti of Narayana Himself. He has the Siddhi of traveling freely through all the Lokas (worlds), and he wanders about singing the glories of Narayana.
It is true that he is entertained by quarrels. But all he does is in service of the greater Dharma. Guided by Narayana’s secret council, Narada Muni sometimes talks to people he meets in various Lokas, and tells them things that will cause quarrels between them and others. Narayana uses Narada Muni as a tool in this way to break accumulated tensions into motion and resolve built-up karmas. Narada Muni then gets to stand back and watch the fun unfold as chaos erupts and Narayana, or someone on His behalf, fixes the situation in spectacular fashion. In this way Narada gets to participate in the Lilas of Narayana.
But what is the difference with the devil? Even the devil if you go further his acting you Can find good conséquence if research very deeply with mystical understanding?
The difference is that Narada Muni is a holy being. Sure, you can say that all beings ultimately do the will of the Divine, but in that case you could say that any being in creation is “like the devil”.
Alishane
In islam there is external law to create a civilization and secret law for the mystical Sufi
You can not mix
You keep the secret for you but not
If you are a judge you can not say to a thief OK you stole but the secret wisdom of this is…..So you are free..
Or if a mad man wants to rape your daughter would you say OK there is a secret wisdom?
Or if a satan woman want to make you divorce would you say to your wife oh it s like narada it a quite cool there is a secret wisdom let's divorce
If I am a Sufi judge I tell very strongly that it is a very grave act and condamn the thief to jail and intern I have a mystical understanding just for me that God gives me. God can not laugh to naranda acting like this or it means that Veda law, Islamic law , Jew law based on paradox it s impossible
All the murder outside if there is a mystical wisdom?
That s why Allah said in coran to the shaytane
Get out of there and all that follow will go to hell
But mystically god know that shaytane come from his eternal wisdom to test human beeing
Hinduism had too much influence of the poetry that made competition with troups using holy Scripture and adding fancy understanding
Don't be surprised that rape and evil things increase in India if you count naranda story to children . Don't you think it s bad consequence ?
REE
Narada doesn’t steal, murder, or any such thing. He just sings the praises of Narayana, and sometimes talks to people, only ever telling the truth. It’s true that he has a mischievous streak, but he only stirs up trouble when God has guided him to do so.
Alishane
But it s exactly like shaytane . A spirit that Can take a human body travelling in Time like he wants. And his name IS the adviser. And shaytane told to adam when making him taking the fruit of the fall
IAM for you a good adviser
And the shaytane in jugement day will leave people he misled like narada saying:
“No no IAM not responsible it s not me. You human Beeing you acted i was just an adviser'
Dont you feel the spirit is like a devil ?
Ree
Wasn’t Shaytane supposedly lying to Adam? Narada doesn’t lie or mislead people. I really don’t feel that Narada is very much like any Abrahamic version of the devil. Incidentally, the Abrahamic devil is not a part of Hinduism.